Former Minister of Health, Prof. A.B.C Nwosu has said that the recent sit-at-home order observed in the South East was not the reason the Arewa youth groups handed a quit notice to the Igbo in the North.
In this interview with VINCENT KALU, Prof Nwosu, who also served as Political Adviser to former President Olusegun Obasanjo noted that the reason for the order is yet to be told, stressing, “ No, that wasn’t the reason; the reason was more deep-seated than that…”
What is your view on the state of the nation?
The state of Nigerian nation is very fragile. People should be aware that when something is fragile, it requires urgent action for it not to break.
Given this fragility as you mentioned, what then is your fear for this country?
It is easy to become a failed state. The ethnic groups in Nigeria are mutually suspicious and afraid of one another, they threaten one another to a point of killing people; they threaten each other with lives and properties, which are the final things you can have.
The youths are unemployed and they have lost faith in the ability of the elders to protect them; the governed are struggling with their means of livelihood that they are losing interest in government.
All these are critical elements that lead to state failure, and so we must act as people who don’t want state failure, and who really want to build the nation.
What should we be doing, more than 56 years after independence, we are yet to become a nation state?
Exactly the same thing we are supposed to have been doing before. There are nation-building activities, and we are inter-marrying; we have gone a long way, we are doing business together and we are all over the country. So, we should continue to make sure that the two words – fairness, and secondly, we run a government that includes everybody, and a government where the welfare of everybody and not welfare of a section is the primary responsibility of government. We make sure that everybody has jobs, and that people who are out of school are in school. We must also make sure that we have proper infrastructure, and electricity. There are so many and we know all of them.
We started doing them from the very day we had independence in 1960, had a break, fought a war and came back and started rebuilding, as if we didn’t fight a war and suddenly, people are behaving as if Nigeria had not existed for 56 years.
The IPOB and MASSOB, separatist groups in the South East organised a sit-at-home in the region to remember 50 years of Biafra, and this has peeved the youths of the North, who in turn issued a quit notice order to Igbo in their region, what is you reaction to that?
I have been observing a sit at home for almost 50 years, I was not ordered by IPOB to sit at home. I have been sitting at home for almost 50 years.
Anybody is free to choose a day to remember the day his father died, his uncle or his relation died. I have been observing it for almost 50 years; I didn’t observe it because of IPOB or MASSOB or any individual.
I observed it for cleansing, purification and the elevation of the soul. I am allowed to mourn anybody who died, and to choose a date for my mourning, as long as I don’t disturb anybody’s liberty. Whose liberty was disturbed by my staying at home? Did I disturb anybody’s liberty? Every other person was free to do what he or she wanted on that day. Why should my doing what I wanted be a problem?
I can’t understand it at all. For some of us who didn’t sit at home because of IPOB and MASSOB, it is annoying to the extreme for anybody to suggest that anytime I sit at home to remember a lost one, a loved or a lost cause that I’m disrupting the nation. It is silly.
I think the problem was that they never really knew that most of us were not happy with the position that the Igbo find themselves in Nigeria. I think that is the point.
I think many people thought that everything was all right with the Igbo; you can shovel shit in to their mouths and they are okay, so long as they are doing business and making money. I think that is all that it showed, and it is not all right. Human beings have God given rights and freedoms, and you should let them exercise them, while making sure they don’t trample on anybody’s freedoms or rights.
It is not any issue. If you don’t want to go to work even as an individual, why would it be upsetting anybody? I don’t understand.
I think the issue was that people decided therefore to find the peaceful way of showing their brethren and fellow citizens that they are not having a good deal. What is wrong with it? Nobody was hurt; no traffic was obstructed, what is the problem there?
That was not the reason for the quit notice. Somebody sat at home in his house and you said for that reason, he should go away. No, that wasn’t the reason; the reason was more deep-seated than that and until we know, we can’t comment.
The Buhari government is two years in office, what is your assessment?
The government needs to do more. My assessment is the same as your own. I’m in the PDP, and have always been in the PDP. I was one of those who sat down and founded the party, therefore I’m in the opposition and I’m aware that what I say would be seen as the voice of the opposition.
The simple question to ask is, in the past two years, has my life been better or worse; is it getting better or worse. I don’t want any reason that it was my grandfather that caused it or from the argument that Nigeria would have crashed if we had continued with the PDP. How do you know if something hasn’t happened, don’t go into that, how would it have crashed?
We had a PDP government, which was defeated in an election, and they conceded and handed over to the APC government. They have been doing their best in terms of correcting and making life better.
The question for very citizen – PDP, APC alike is, have our lives been better in the last two years or not; is electricity better in the last two years or not; has the dollar been cheaper in the last two years or not; has transport been cheaper, are roads better, what is it that is better in the last two years.
Each one will make his or her own assessment, and when the time comes, you use those assessments. That is my attitude.
If I begin to tell now, I would be seen as PDP, but I have told the story many times. I’m a lucky PDP member that came into government on May 29, 1999, and I knew then that the Foreign Reserve was less than $3 billion from the military regime, and I know that oil was selling at less than $20 per barrel. I know that Nigeria’s debt was $33 billion, and I know that the Constitution we have was imperfect. I also know that when APC came into power, the Foreign Reserve was over $30 billion; oil was selling at more than $40, it only dipped briefly below $40, and since then it has never gone below $40. I know the oil production has been disrupted by insurgency, but it never reached the $500 that it was under PDP, when Yar’Adua did the amnesty, etc; I know that the maximum the Naira reached was N188 per dollar, and I know that the debt burden was almost removed for them.
You can at least use some of these and evaluate and then ask, where are we now?
It is a given criteria for evaluation of success or failure and let Nigerians take their decision, but I’m not going to say this is a good government or not. However, the one notable exception appears to be agriculture, where there is direction and effort and focus to get it right.
The next general elections which would come up in 2019 is around the corner, does the PDP have the muscle to come back to power considering that the party is factionalised with the Makarfi and Sheriff factions still in court?
I belong to the Makarfi faction, and all the governors, as well as the National Assembly members are also in the Makarfi faction. The Sheriff faction says it has some governors, but their own is secret, it is not open. We don’t know the governors and the NASS members who are with him; we also don’t know former ministers who are with him. I know that all of us who are in the Makarfi faction are open with the Makarfi group.
So, it is easy to see that PDP is one and remains one. Every effort to destabilise the party will not succeed and in the end, it will emerge because it is people that make party and not party that makes the people.
In the end, as soon as the Supreme Court gives it’s verdict, there will be a convention of the party one way or the other. Those who have won and those who want to follow them will have the convention.
Those who haven’t won and if they don’t want to follow will have their own convention not of PDP but will find somewhere to have their convention. We are waiting for the Supreme Court judgment.
There is rumour making the rounds that the Makarfi group will flock into one of the newly registered political parties if the Supreme Court verdict doesn’t favour them, how true is this?
I don’t know. Lets wait for the Supreme Court decision. The Makarfi faction has come out to say that it has not registered any party. If they have registered any party, I’m not aware of it, and I should know if they had. When the apex court decides, then politicians in the PDP will take their own decision. Let us wait till then.
How do you see the fight against corruption under this government viz-a-viz the PDP government?
When former President Olusegun Obasanjo on May 29, 1999, was sworn in, the same day, he appointed me his Political Adviser.
That same day, he had in his right hand pocket, the NDDC Bill, and he said the government needed to do something about Niger Delta. In his left pocket, he had ICPC Bill, and noted that the government needed to do something about corruption.
I was actually the person charged with the responsibility of horning it and introducing them to the National Assembly. These were executive bills.
The PDP government initiated and set up the institutions with which to fight corruption. Those are still the institutions being used today; nothing has been added into them. So, it is the PDP set institutions, the ICPC, the EFCC that are being used to fight corruption. Police was there before.
Now, under the PDP government, many PDP governors, and high ranking members were before the courts and the EFCC. They were sent there by the PDP government and so that record is there. Some PDP governors and operatives were convicted.
Right now, even when you have APC operative being accused of fraud in cutting grass for the IDPs, he is cleared even before he is investigated, not to think of other ones. We are yet to know who owns the $43 billion found in Ikoyi residential apartment, we are yet to know who packed the mint that was taken to Kaduna Airport, we are yet to know many. These are not good for anybody.
The fight against corruption should be institutionalized. Everybody who was under investigation, or suspected or living in a manner that questioned his source of wealth has run into APC, and nothing has happened. This is the concern of people. It is not that people are being prosecuted. It is that everybody should be prosecuted and the institution should be strengthened.
There should be much money and training so that investigations are more thorough so that when you take the people to court, you convict them. These are the things that can bring improvement, but people should not forget that the instruments that you are using were set up by the PDP.
In the course of the corruption fight by this government, are you surprised by the quantum of money allegedly stolen or linked to PDP members?
You can see that the money they are mentioning was campaign funds. If you investigate campaign funds either in APC or PDP, you will see stupendous amount of money being called.
By the way, there has never been anything said about the $43 million recovered from an apartment in Ikoyi. Why is it so difficult to mention publicly the owner of the apartment, why is it so difficult to name the persons. What has just happened is that we have now quickly surrounded the thing with cloak of secrecy by setting up a panel that is supposed to report to Mr. President.
We all have sympathy and praying for his recovery. So, it has now been a way of closing that matter. But for the one of Kaduna that was announced with all fanfare, we don’t hear anything again about it; that one, we don’t know who has it.
If you look at the amount of monies being mentioned, a lot of it was spent supposedly in the purchase of arms, and for elections. The same Nigerian Army that purchased arms under Jonathan is still the same Nigerian Army purchasing arms under Buhari. It hasn’t changed.
The same Nigerian Army that was supposed not to have achieved any success was the same Nigerian Army under Jonathan that cleared this Boko Haram up to Sambisa Forest for elections to be held.
Get the election result, all 774 local governments in Nigeria voted for the presidential election, and you can check local government by local government who won and whether it is President Buhari or Jonathan in each local government. It is completely confusing to me where you said that Boko Haram was in charge of Local Government X and that Local Government X voted for Jonathan and also the same Local Government X voted Buhari.
Does it mean we were having elections where Boko Haram members were in control and voting?
People should remove from their stories some of these confusing things; it is propaganda, and once we get out of propaganda, we will be able to improve the lives of Nigerians.
The election results are published; anybody can capture them and see. The same propaganda is applied in electricity, it improved and you said it was body language, and today they are trying to bite their tongues in trying to explain electricity.
The point is that there has never been any major investment in electricity in Nigeria. The PDP came and I was in cabinet when the debate came to improve electricity supply. The party under former President Obasanjo went out to procure turbines to improve electricity. That was how the NIPP project came about.
We are humans and mistakes are bound to occur, but contracts were given, General Electric was engaged, Maldini was also engaged. The money was spent; it ran into billions of dollars, there have been so many efforts to check, and even know how the dollars were spent and you said there is nothing to show for it. Who told you that there is nothing to show for it?
There are turbines, they are now being completed, and the gas would go to them. It is for you to check what is there and if there are mistakes, correct them and move on. But to say that the contracts given to General Electric, Maldini and Rockson Engineering, which they are trying to finish, were not given by the PDP, is not true. I know about the contracts. If we get out of propaganda, we will see how we can raise electricity supply.
If we get out of propaganda, we can fix this country.
The Acting president is being applauded over the steps he has taken to douse the tension in the country by meeting with elders from the North and the Southeast, but the argument is that he is supposed to meet with the youths, who are stoking the fire in the country. What do you say to this?
We must design a programme to engage our youths, but whether it is the youth that will determine the cause and the control of it, I’m not sure I have bought into it because the youths have fathers, and not all fathers are stupid.
In any case, fathers are still citizens, so we should know how to go about doing it. What really is of concern to us is that the quit notice given to the Igbo should be properly addressed and with the urgency that it deserves. They have also said, please, give them Biafra and let them go.
They wanted Biafra in 1967, you didn’t let them go, it cost me half of my left lung. I was a final year undergraduate, and I became an army officer. It cost me that in combat. I know what I’m talking about. They wanted it, you said no. By 1970,we went back, took our degrees and went out. How many years? It has not been mentioned, if it were the problem, why should I have been a minister in the country.
Now you are saying, ‘give it to them’. The shock you will get is that if you give it to them, they will take it, and they will quit.
But is that the best thing for Nigeria and for e erybody? If we answer that question then we will be able to moderate our rhetoric and the things that we say both young and old. The issue is that any further ethnic killing and appropriation of property in Nigeria will lead to disintegration of the country. It should be addressed with the seriousness that it deserves. The people who are giving the quit order should be careful. The sit-at-home order didn’t give anybody any quit notice, they said they want their Biafra.
They have been accusing us the elders that we are saying nothing. Why should we say anything? I might as well throw it back, what did the elders do when Boko Haram started. What did they need to say?
We should be careful and talk to ourselves sincerely and stop all these things that we are engineering because we are out of jobs; we are out of oil blocs; we cannot get easy dollars again.
It is not right because when the fire starts, it will burn everybody. Nobody can control the collateral damage, and I hope that both government and the governed will take the matter very seriously.