From Beifoh Osewele, Tony Osauzo and Ighomuaye Lucky, Benin

A retired justice of the Supreme Court, Justice Samson Uwaifo, is very worried about recent happenings in the Nigerian judiciary, to the extent that he felt like weeping.
In this interview with Sunday Sun, Justice Uwaifo, known for his uprightness while on the bench, spoke on the recent arrest of some judges by operatives of the Department of State Services (DSS) over allegations of corruption. He recommends that judges found to be corrupt should be jailed to serve as deterrence to others. He spoke on other related issues.

Sir, one of the topical issues  today is the recent arrest of some judges at the federal and supreme courts  by the DSS. You were at the Apex Court, where you retired from. Is it right for the DSS to have done what they did?
Well, no. I think it was wrong of them to behave the way they did. If they have any information, intelligence reports against a particular person or persons, they should have done it in a more civilized way. They should inform the police or probably they should have gone with the police to the place and not at that odd time. Unless the evidence was such that if they did not go there at such time, that evidence will either be taken away, but on the whole, I think it was not quite civilized for them to do what they did.

Sir, in the newspapers today, one of the judges reacted as if to say let me give it back to them. Is that also right?
No. If what he was saying really happened.. I think I read it. He said that he informed the CJN about it severally or so, that some people approached him. If that happened, what he did from what he said, he asked the CJN not to put him on the panel of judges to … So, there was something about it in his own defence. My view is that if he told the CJN in February then, of course, it now depends on whether the CJN confirms what he said. If the CJN confirms that, then, of course, that would have happened to him.

Before this issue, there has been much worry about alleged corruption on the bench. In your time, what we are seeing now, was there anything like this in the judiciary?
In my time, I can recall that we were a bit worried that some judges were corrupt. Then, I said it in my valedictory. I said we have to be very careful because this corruption will climb up and so and so forth. But not at this rate that we are seeing, as if corruption has become the main thing. I think you read what Ray Ekpu wrote in today’s (Thursday) Guardian. After I read it, I was very sad. I nearly wept, how he described how some judges take bribes. They can even take from two sides and then write a judgement that you can interpret anyhow.

God will save this country. Honestly, if this is being said about judges, then, I think we are sinking. Judges are supposed to sit in judgement over people who commit crimes, and if it is now being shown  that they themselves commit crime, how can they sit in judgement over another?
The CJN himself is not happy about it. You know, he has done quite a lot to see that some of these corrupt judges are punished. The way it is going now, I do not know. It is getting out of hand.

You said in your valedictory speech that there was corruption in the bench. So, does it mean that corruption is not new in the system?
It is not completely new, but it was not as obvious as this. You find a few judges misbehaving and all that, but it will appear that the malaise has increased.

Did you encounter it as a judge that somebody offered you money to upturn a judgment?
No. Right from the beginning, everybody knew that you could not approach me with such. No, it is not possible. If you behave in such a way that you are approachable, then people will approach you, but if people know that there is no way they can approach you they will not approach you. I did not go through this kind of situation.

A while ago, you were so worried about the situation that it is like it is getting out of hand, do we give up? What do we do?
We will not give up. You know the President himself said if we do not kill corruption, corruption will kill Nigeria. I think he was looking ahead. So, we have to fight corruption so that it will not kill Nigeria. Anybody who is found to be corrupt, be he a judge or not, he should face the law. If he is found guilty, he should go to jail. There is no question of giving him a fine or retiring him. Do not retire a judge that is corrupt. If you retire a judge that is corrupt you just make him happy in a way, because he will be getting his pension and gratuity.
A judge who is found to be corrupt must face the music. He must be prosecuted. If there is enough evidence to convict him, he should go to jail. That is the way I look at it. And if you do that, jail this one, jail that one, corruption will just run away through the window. It will not happen again. But if you use kid gloves, do it administratively, you are just wasting your time. Those who are determined to take bribe, they will continue. If you find anyone who is guilty and you send him to jail, his entire family in a sense, will be affected, his life career will be destroyed. So, if you have those many like that, who are found to be guilty, send them to jail.

Currently we have a fight against corruption by the present administration. But it will appear that Nigerians are also attuned  to corruption. Generally speaking, if you are corrupt and you are facing the music, your tribesmen, etc will come out to say you are just being punished for no reason. Does that encourage the fight against corruption?
You just ignore those people. They are not the owners of Nigeria, you should ignore them and do what is right provided you follow due process, you follow the law and if the evidence is sufficient to convict, you convict them. Let them say whatever they like.

The other aspect is that, all Nigerians are supposed to key into this fight, but it will appear that some people believe that is a Buhari affair and other people are standing aloof. If Nigerians do not join in this fight and show concern as you have just expressed, do you think we will win the war against corruption?
No, it will be difficult to win if we all do not get involved, except you are a corrupt person and if you do not give it up, you will meet your waterloo. So, everyone should be involved. We should try to fight this corruption. It is an evil that is trying to destroy the psyche and our well being, our honour. So, we must fight the corruption together.

There is a worrisome dimension on the bench right now, you see a judge of a federal high court, for example, giving a judgement on a particular issue, then another court of the same jurisdiction also making pronouncement on the same matter. Is that right?
That is an aspect of corruption. You know that a judge of the same jurisdiction with you has decided this matter and you now take it over, you have no right to do that. If those people are not satisfied, they should go on an appeal. And if they come to you and you know you are aware of what has happened and you continue with the case, that is corruption itself, which is very bad. It gives us the judiciary a very bad name.

Now as a retired judge of the Apex Court, what do you think should be done to check this behaviour in such situation?
The present CJN should call a meeting to discuss this matter. I think, if you find judges who will do such a thing, well, they are not fit to be on the bench. Better still, just retire them. It is not enough to send them to jail, just retire them. And when you do that, you cut short their career on the bench because they are not fit to be there. So, you should remove them.
Very recently, we have had very many of such pronouncements but we have not heard any sanction being meted to the defaulters. However, we do not know if the CJN is doing something quietly. I can cite very vividly the PDP case, the crisis within the party. We have heard various courts’ pronouncements from Abuja,

Port Harcourt and Lagos on the same issue and nobody seems to be doing something about it. May we know if the CJN is doing something sir?
I think the CJN is doing something about it because the CJN is very disturbed.

How often do you weep for the judiciary seeing that the bench that you served in for so many years has gone this way? Does it sometime bring tears to your eyes?
Well, I do not weep all the time but what I read from the Ray Ekpu article, is very disturbing. He seemed to know quite a lot about what is going on on the bench. When I read it, I was very sad, I felt dejected.

Do you have any regret being a lawyer?
No. There is no regret. I just feel that a lot of people have lost their sense of honour and unfortunately they are on the bench. So, how  to pick them and remove them should be done without any sense of regret and those that are not fit should not be there.

When I was in class four, one of the books we read in literature then was the Incorruptible Judge. And the picture I got from there was that a judge must be of an impeccable character. Two years ago, I went into a public toilet and what I saw shocked me. One wrote  that the judiciary, the lost hope of the common man. The other said the good lawyers know the law while better lawyers know the judges. That is the way most Nigerians see it now. And when we have a situation like that, it reminds me that we are back in the jungle, and when we get to that level where does that leave us as a country?
I do not think we have reached that stage. Maybe we are getting there from what I read in the newspapers. There is the unfortunate tendency for some people, even those in  authority to misunderstand the important role of the judiciary in the maintenance of law and order, in redressing grievances, protecting individual rights and ensuring democratic culture. There is often an underlying doubt about the dispensation  of justice on  merit. Those who really do not want their official actions questioned, even in a democratic dispensation, regard judges as their undeclared enemies. These put justice and injustice at a crossroads in relation to the concept of democracy. As Reynold Nebel puts it; man’s capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man’s inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary.
Democracy is most obviously seen to be necessary when the tendency of an autocrat puts justice at risk, but one sure way of making democracy stay on course, is to enthrone justice
Similarly, individual rights when systematically trampled upon, leads to loss of faith in the whole quality. Therefore, in the performance of his office, a superior court in particular owes itself for the sake of the dignity of the judiciary, and owes the society for the sake of maintaining the public confidence, and not least, owes the party before it, for the sake of justice the duty to administer the law in a manner which ensures that there remains reasonable validity in the claim that the judiciary is the last line of defence and hope of those who approach it.
A corrupt judge is more harmful to the society than a man who runs amok with a dagger in his hand in a crowded street. He can be restrained physically of course, but a corrupt judge deliberately destroys the moral foundation of the society and causes incalculable distress to individuals through abusing his office while still regarding himself as honourable minister. The question of a judge being corrupt never really crossed my mind when I was appointed a judge. I thought all the judge needs to do is to do his job properly. As I said ,maybe you have seen it, when I was appointed a judge for the first time, when I sat and they brought the record book before me; that was my first time of seeing a record book as a judge. ‎They wrote there,  His Lordship, the Honourable Mr. Justice Samson .O. Uwaifo. So, when I read it, I said who are they talking about? Is it me? Because it came to me as a surprise and the volume of honour was so much. I said they are addressing me as Lordship, the Honourable Mr. Justice S. Uwaifo. Then I myself decided that I will do everything in my power to impress God.
The question of corruption did not pass through my mind. I did not think of it at all. That was how I did my job to satisfy the desire of God. That was all. But now, you have all kinds of layabouts being appointed judges. Some who have failed as lawyers, some who even left the practice of law to go and do business, they find their way to the bench. So with that sort of situation, you are likely to have judges who are not fit to be on the bench. So that is the problem. In this my valedictory speech, I also suggested how we should appoint judges, how we should promote judges, the procedure to go, but our people will not allow it.

Is there a forum where experienced retired judges like yourself from the Apex Court where issues like what we are witnessing now are raised and where you make suggestions as to how they could be addressed?
No. Since I retired, I have been at home.

Don’t you think it is about time people like you waded into the situation and save the judiciary from the precipice, because it is falling over?
Well, we have to be careful as well, otherwise they will give you name. They will say he wants to show that he is something else; but lawyers and some judges who knew me right from time, they know what I will not accept. Even the then Chief Justice of Nigeria, Uwais knew that was the kind of person I am. If there was a matter and they wanted to bend towards government I will say no, this is the way I understand it, and I will put it in my own way. Luckily at times, they will come to agree with me.
Actually, the Supreme Court I left was a very good one, and I can tell you that. We will sit together after hearing a case, to find out what will be the right judgement. One after the other, we will suggest what will be the answer until we come to a consensus and one person will be assigned to write the judgement. But if you have devoted yourself to it more than the others, that means you have read the whole thing and they see that you have a point, they will ask you to write the judgement. It was a very good idea.

Beyond the judiciary, let’s talk about corruption generally. One of the problems we see that is tearing this country apart is the problem of injustice which you referred to. As a country, are  you satisfied the way we are going?
No. We are not really progressing, although the present president says he will fight corruption. We are watching him. Let us see what he can do but we are not really making any progress. Look at for instance, I was quite surprised when Jubrin of the House of Representatives was talking of padding and it is true that they did padding, N20 billion, so we heard. They sent him on leave for 180 days and nobody is saying what they have done is wrong. I do not know, but he should have also gone to court to challenge them quickly. That padding they do, they steal the money, in the end. Somebody has said you people have done padding and then you just send him on leave for the period of 180 days. What is happening? I do not understand.

Is it kind of the people getting the kind of the judiciary they deserve?
Yes, in a way. But that is not an excuse. The society might be corrupt, that is not an excuse for the judiciary to be corrupt because they have a job to do. To sit in judgement over those that are corrupt. I do not take that as an excuse at all. The society might be corrupt yes, politicians, a lot of them, people know they are corrupt, but is that why a judge should be corrupt? No I do not accept that. A judge should not be corrupt under any circumstances because the judiciary is a very critical arm of government. It may not have the financial autonomy but they have a critical role to play to see that the society has some sanity. Not everybody will get mad. Some people will be mad, but there should be doctors who will cure those that are mad.

What will you suggest for Nigeria to make progress as we ought to?
Well, to put it in a general form, the legislature  should do their job, the executive should do their job while the judiciary should also do their job. We should imbibe some code of conduct. I do not think, for instance, the legislature should have absolute autonomy. No, so that you can do whatsoever you like without anybody asking you? No. If you do anything that is criminal, you should be brought to justice. The only people who cannot be brought to justice when they do anything are the president, the vice president, the governor and the deputy governor. All others, no matter your position. If you do anything that is criminal, you will be brought to book. We should understand that and we should all imbibe that and pursue it.
Our lawyers, a lot of senior lawyers are indicted which is very disheartening. Senior Advocate is like a QC in England. If you see a QC misbehaving of course, straight away, he will lose it. You cannot find that, but the way they said some of the judges, although I do not have evidence against them, but what they say they do, some of the senior lawyers who collect money for the judges and all that. That is very bad. I know a few senior advocates, they are very sad about what is happening, as if we love money more than our own names. Some people love money so much than their names. So that is what is wrong with us. So it will take time to eradicate corruption, but we must not give up. If the current government is actually serious and the President pursues his agenda, we should all support him.
The judiciary should not be intimidated no matter the position. They should not bend toward government because they want to please them, no. They should do what is right. If government is right they should say so and if it is wrong, they they should also say so, and if the individual is wrong or right they should also say so. They should never be intimidated. I put down in my paper. Let me read it. I said, let the day never come when it may be said that the Supreme Court could not stand forthright enough, but buckled under pressure having regard to the manipulative dimension prevalent in our social political environment, but manifesting as an undergrowth and tending to overshadow with unpredictable consequence our sense of honour and direction as a nation. The Supreme Court must always domonstrate even more than ever in such atmosphere that it can neither bend nor break. They must do the right thing at all times. Let them do the right thing and let people see that they have been persecuted. But if they want to please anybody, then, you are destroying the country.

What is your water mark and your lowest points?
On the whole, I did what I thought was right. My lowest moment then was when we lost some of our colleagues.

Was there any judgment you gave that you regretted over?
No. I did my best. It depends on whoever that is reading it. But nobody has told me that I did not do good enough. They have only told me that my judgements were perfect.