Aidoghie Paulinus, Abuja

The pioneer Chairman of the Economic and Financial Crimes Commission (EFCC), Assistant Inspector General of Police, Nuhu Ribadu (rtd), has said that irrespective of what Nigerians think about the anti-graft war in the country, the war should be allowed to continue.

Ribadu, who spoke with Sunday Sun in Abuja, said with over 4,000 ongoing criminal cases across different courts in the country, the EFCC has attained global reckoning by even surpassing a country like China with a population of about 1.4 billion.
Ribadu also spoke on the recent rating of Nigeria by the Transparency International (TI), saying that the nation took the rating wrongly by directing it at the government. He also spoke on the stand-off between the EFCC Chairman, Ibrahim Magu and the Senate, pointing out that going by the Nigerian Constitution, the National Assembly, had no business screening Magu in the first place.

How do you see the current anti-graft war in the country?
My personal opinion is that the war is going on very well, and in the war against corruption what normally will tell you whether you are doing well or not is when people are making a lot of noise and complaints. Those who are being taken to court or those who are being investigated will not just keep quiet. And through them, the whole place will be completely like as if the whole country is turning upside down. If you see such a thing happening, the chances are that the war is going on very well. Normally, that is what happens all over the world. It is not just in Nigeria. Right now, if you see the number of cases that are in our court, they go in thousands. EFCC alone has taken to court over 4,000 cases, ongoing trial, and I am sure that the Independent Corrupt Practices and Other Related Offences Commission (ICPC) do have their own; maybe the police and other law enforcement outfits. So, this is a global record. I don’t think there is any country in the world, including even China with a population of about 1.4 billion people, and you have such number of corruption cases going on in their courts. This is a fact. I mean, it is not really speculation. These are real things of what is going on in our country. If you see the volume of recoveries that we are daily making, it is a lot. Every single day, you open a newspaper or listen to news; you will hear that this number of money has been recovered and that this number of property has been seized. And we have recovered billions and billions and I think it is also a sign that we are not doing badly. Three, of course, Nigeria is the only country in the world where they are returning stolen money to the country. It is the only country in the world! There is no other country where you hear that. And daily, we are witnessing that happening. Every now and then, you hear that couple of millions are being returned.

But some people believe that there are persons that the president has not mustered the courage or show willingness to probe. What is your take on this?
This is the same complaint always and the fact that there are people who are taken to court, it is a step forward. When we were in government, we were accused by those who were in the opposition then that you are not taking action, you are not doing this, you are not doing that. Now, it is the opposition in government. So, this is how things work. Tomorrow, another person will come in. Let’s not stop this war simply because we feel that someone in government is not taking those whom you think are close to him. I am not saying that it is happening, I am not saying that I agree with it; my point is that let the war continue. Today, it is Paulinus, tomorrow, it can be another person.

How do you see the war on corruption since Ibrahim Magu took over the EFCC?
We’ve seen an increase in the whole tempo of the war and then, the number of cases that are being investigated. They are very, very busy now. They are working 24 hours.

Do you think the refusal of the Senate to confirm Magu is whittling down the fight against corruption in the country?
This is another sign that the war is going on very well because everybody wants to stop it. It is a very clear indication that Magu is doing his work and I totally agree with what the government has done in terms of allowing them to continue with the work. My own take about subjecting the office of the EFCC leadership to clearance from the National Assembly or the Senate in particular, I think it is unconstitutional. It is wrong because it is possible through that, you will even completely kill this war against corruption. And you will scatter it! And Nigerians do not want that.

So, it is not in the constitution?
It is not. It is against the constitution because the constitution of Nigeria says if you are doing this type of work, if you are in the law enforcement sector or security, you should not be subjected to the scrutiny or approval of the National Assembly. Like the Inspector General of Police does not go through screening; the National Security Adviser does not go through screening; the Director-General of the Department of State Service (DSS) does not go through screening; the Comptroller-General of Immigration does not go through screening; the Comptroller-General of Customs does not go through screening; the Director-General of the National Intelligence Agency (NIA) does not go through screening. All of them. So, why do you single out the EFCC and the ICPC? And they are even doing more in terms of serious work that requires independence more than any of them. Going by the spirit of the constitution, the intention of those who wrote that constitution, we are supposed to exclude offices like that from the control of the legislature. I mean, it is a simple fact. Do you expect this National Assembly to clear a person who is prosecuting many of them? So, do you want us to just get someone who will not go and do any work? I mean, we are just being unfair to Nigeria if that is the position we are taking and I feel Nigerians need to look at it and reflect very well on this matter. The constitution of Nigeria, at the time when it was promulgated, the intention was not to subject institutions like this to screening. And the case of Magu is a clear indication that the war against corruption is going on very well. I am 100 per cent in support of that. Whenever you see a leader or head of the anti-corruption is very quiet and he is a friend to all and he is liked, then the work is not going on.

So, the current outburst shows the war is going on well?
Absolutely!

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The National Assembly scrutinises the budget of the EFCC; what is your take on that?
That is the point because they need to be independent. When we say independent, we need total, like people should not be meant to control them in terms of the appointment we are talking about and funding. If we truly want them to be independent, we have to find a way of funding them without anybody’s control. You have to find a way of giving out these appointments without making it subject to approval of people who invariably can be targets of their investigation. So, these are some of the fundamentals, core reasons when we call for the independence of such bodies, we mean this type of things. And it is not just the EFCC, but the ICPC as well. Today, the EFCC does not have a substantive chairman simply because of this problem.  It is the same thing with the ICPC. Do you want to kill them completely? Do you want the work to stop?

Going by the constitution, can Magu continue in office till the expiration of President Buhari’s administration?
I mean, nothing stops the president from appointing anyone whom he wants to work with in the war against corruption because he is the head of the executive and the EFCC is an executive organ of government. So, I think it will continue, but I hope that even the Senate or the National Assembly, will come along and also contribute their own quota and participate in making Nigeria great by fully cooperating and helping the Federal Government in the war against corruption.

You have been a bit silent on making comments concerning government activities, where do you stand presently on President Muhammadu Buhari’s administration?
When it comes to the issue of anti-corruption, I have given you my opinion and I think this is an area I may probably have something to say. It is not like you say everything is going on well, no. Nobody can say that, but the part that you asked me, I have given you my honest opinion. I feel the war against corruption is not really bad. It is going on very well.

What is your take on the recent corruption rating in the country by the Transparency International?
It is a perception index and if Transparency International will have the records of how many cases we have in our courts today, certainly they will rank the government of Nigeria number one in the war against corruption in the world. Like I told you, we have over 4,000 ongoing criminal cases and we are recovering billions. Fighting corruption means, what are the institutions doing? What is the government doing? Perception is different. The perception index is a reflection of what probably, ordinarily is going on, maybe, when you meet a media man, he wants to take something from you. They will take that as a perception. You will not be able to pick it and say you put the blame on the Federal Government of Nigeria; or you go to the motorpark and someone wants to take something from you.

So, it is just a perception?
Yes. So, it is not about really the fight or the institutions. It is about the prevalence of the behaviour within the society and it simply means that you go to the airport and a tout will want to take something from you, you pass through this and somebody is begging you. These are the type of things that build this perception and also, Transparency International sends people to ask questions, ordinary Nigerians. It is a different rating. The way we look at it is not the way they are taking it. They are giving a sort of what they consider a reflection of ordinary things happening in our country.

Not actually on the part of government?
No, absolutely no! It is a perception that if you come to Nigeria, maybe before you transact any business, you have to pay.

So, Nigerians took the rating wrongly?
Totally, completely wrongly.

How can we reduce corruption in the country to its barest minimum?
By what we are doing now; fight it to a standstill, get people jailed, take the money they have stolen, go after the grand corruption, the big ones that are benefiting. Continue to go that direction. It is a tough one, it is a difficult one, but through that gradually, we will get to a point where we will be able to say yes, we will overcome it.