From Gyang Bere, Jos

DR Wantaregh Paul Unongo, Deputy National Leader of Northern Elders Forum in this interview invoked God’s punishment on those who clamouring for the disintegration of Nigeria after three million Nigerians had died during the civil war to build peace. The elder statesman also took a swipe at Prof. Ango Abdullahi over his support for the quit notice on Igbos in the North and said he was not qualified to speak for northern elders on the issue. He said the implementation of ex-president Goodluck Jonathan’s national confab report would destabilize Nigeria, noting that the conference excluded a section of Nigeria and favoured a particular religion.

Acting President Yemi Osinbajo has been meeting with Northern and Eastern elders to douse tension over the quit notice issued by a coalition of Arewa youths to South easterners to leave the North and recently the youths urged the Federal Government in a fresh letter to allow the Igbo to have Biafra Republic. Does that mean Northern elders are not in control of the North?

You are a very young man full of intelligence. I will answer your question by going back to history. We fought the colonial masters, the British that colonized us and said we wanted to govern ourselves. Britain is the only country that doesn’t have a written constitution and countries evolve when they have a constitution. During the colonial days when we were agitating for independence of Nigeria, we insisted we wanted to be on our own and started a process of constitutional review and we made a constitution, which defined the Federal Republic of Nigeria. Within that context, the question you are asking was not raised. The constitution recognizes the Nigerian state, it gives everybody in Nigeria certain rights, and it creates what is called government and sections of government and guarantees freedom of speech. Based on this, I don’t believe that there is any dispute whatsoever. People are free in Nigeria to express their views, they can even canvass for those views by forming themselves into associations. If Kanu wants to canvass for a sovereign state of Biafra, he is welcome. If the young men from the North feel offended by Kanu canvassing for a sovereign state of Biafra and they want to express their views, they are entitled to but the reality confronting us is this; for Kanu the young man, I am sure his elders and brothers who fought the civil war will tell him that they don’t want another civil war and we up in the North, whatever our children say, we tell them that we fought a civil war to keep Nigeria one and we particularly fought the civil war principally against the idea of  biafranization of  Nigeria.

What the children of the North and the children of the South-east don’t understand is that nations go through this, nations and people canvass for what they believe in but the people who make the decision are three entities. There is government which consists of elected representatives of the people and people like myself, the elders who’re custodians of history and people respect us, we also have pressure groups. Like I belong to Northern Elders Forum and we don’t believe in what the children of the North are saying. We can’t prevent our children from feeling angry that elders from the South-east are not telling their children to stay off but two wrongs don’t make a right. As far as I am concerned, those agitating for a Biafra or war are mad.  If they’ve experienced war, they wouldn’t be advocating for war and if their own elders who saw war are not telling them that war is not good, they are not been fair to them. There is a lot of exaggeration in Nigeria; people arrogate to themselves all kinds of powers. The young men from the North have no power to serve notice to Igbos who are citizens qualified to live anywhere. 

I participated in writing the constitution and we have not amended the constitution of Nigeria. How can small children just come and say a section of Nigerians should leave the areas their parents lived and raised them? Elders must be bold, honest and truthful.  I cannot support that, because I was here during the civil war and Nigeria cannot afford that kind of thing again. Nigeria is not the first federation; the United States of America is a federation and the biggest country on earth is Russia and is a federation too.

The spokesperson of the Northern Elders Forum, Prof. Ango Abdullahi came out to support the quit order by the Arewa Youths. Don’t you think that has created an impression that some northern elders orchestrated what the youths are doing?

Nigerians can believe anything, but you should know that I replied Prof. Ango Abdullahi.  I’m the Deputy Leader of northern Elders Forum and Prof. Ango Abdullahi is my very close friend. We have known each other for 63 years and he has very strong views on certain issues which he’s free to express but when it concerns Northern elders, Dan Masanin Kano will be there and Paul Unongo will be there among others. He doesn’t speak for us on this issue. The position of the Northern Elders Forum is that we cannot give any citizen of Nigeria who is guaranteed free movement in Nigeria by the constitution a quit notice.  We can say there are problems in Nigeria, let’s sit and discuss to see how we can resolve them but we will be one Nigeria, because we didn’t kill three million people and work for 50 years and then go back to kill 10 or 12 million people again, we are not going to do that. Northern Elders Forum has never at any point in time mandated these children to make the statement they made. Prof. Ango Abdullahi did not have our authorization to make that statement because it can never be made by Northern Elders Forum. We want the Igbos to remain in the North and to be Nigerians. They are fantastic people. We want Hausa people also to remain in the South-east, we don’t want any ethnic group to give any other a quit notice.

Are you not worried that after efforts of the elders, Arewa youths still went ahead to ask the Federal Government to allow the Igbos to secede?

These youths wrote a letter and said, look Nigerians; if the Igbos wants to go let them go. That’s the wisdom of children and not the wisdom of the elders. Remember, Gen. Gowon (retd) became Head of State at 29 and fought a war for the unity of Nigeria; we fought and killed three million Nigerians for an idea. We were given options to break up or biafranization or federalism and we insist that Nigeria must remain one. You don’t know what it means to look your friend in the face, your classmate and put a gun to his head. It’s not a pleasant experience.

The Senate has requested for the resubmission of the report of 2014 national confab convened by former president Goodluck Jonathan. Is that the way out of the current agitations?

No, it’s not. That conference was not representative of the will of Nigerians and I have always said Jonathan handpicked his friends and cronies who have their own ideas about Nigeria and the people who gave him those ideas. I was also invited with Prof. Ango Abdullahi, my friend, Ben Nwabueze to a hotel room and we were told to write the guidelines for the national conference and I said we couldn’t do that. A national conference is not done like that.

What was your reason for rejecting the proposal?

My goodness, you want to talk about the life of the people and try to implement your resolution as parts of the fundamental law of the country and you don’t want to involve the people? We said let the people choose those to represent them; they should choose their representatives from the local governments and they should gather in Abuja and be paid their legitimate entitlements but when you select your friends and some of us who are lucky that can think, then you bribe them with too much money what do you expect? Everybody who went for this conference, I am sure came back with not less than N5 million. What is that for?

Are you considering that as a bribe?

Yes, I consider it bribe. What do you mean? I should just go for one or two months doing a job that the president called me to do; to debate this and that and at the end of the day I am paid huge sum of money?  It’s bribe. If you don’t want to say it’s bribe, you can use the word corruption, but I see it as bribe. It’s an inducement to make us agree because we are all gentlemen. We took like N5 million to go home in two months. That’s good business but I was not for that. I still believe that Nigeria should be allowed to meet. If we want to convene a conference, I will advise it should be a sovereign national conference, because there is too much talk, let’s hear the real Nigeria. If they come for a sovereign national conference and they fashion out a constitution that will guide their togetherness, who are we to reject it? We are not in a military regime. I’m among people who support a sovereign national conference and I speak as a leader of Northern Elders Forum. At a press conference, I told Nigerians that the North is not afraid of restructuring and that whatever we can restructure that is in the interest of the unity of Nigeria, that will make us more productive and   love one another and develop. Let us do it.

Do you think the Senate was right to call for the resubmission of the confab report?

The Senate is looking for ideas and I don’t know what they will do with that document but it will generate more controversy. I suspect that those of us that felt very strongly that the document does not represent the will of Nigerian people are many and it’s so glaring that certain sections of the country were favoured, certain religious persuasions were favoured, certain types of people were favoured and certain people were excluded.

Were you part of the conference?

No, that was the only national conference that I didn’t attend. Nobody has written more constitutions than myself. I was privileged to have drafted what my party leader presented at the London constitutional conference of 1957/958 but I was not qualified to appear in Jonathan’s constitutional conference. I attended all the conferences that were convened by the military and even the failed one convened by the late Sani Abacha.  I was chairman of states creation committee. Nigerians don’t hate one another, Nigerians acknowledge that there are problems; they articulate them very well when they meet and they resolve them. It’s the people in authority that made magomago of the whole thing. You can’t come behind the door and say your friend wants a state created in his village and you agree with him. The states we have created are not viable and you are now thinking of adding more states. It’s a gentleman’s agreement between big people when they want to confuse the people. You can’t run a country like that. Jonathan was misled.

Are you saying that the 2014 national conference was uncalled for?

No, I didn’t say that. I said it was not representative of Nigerian people. Let us have a representative conference of elected people representing various communities.

What’s a sovereign national conference within the context you are talking about?

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It’s a conference that has more powers than the legislature; that’s put in place by the sovereign people of Nigeria. It means the decision reached at this conference are implemented.

There has been a lively debate between the North and the South about restructuring. What do you say to that?

There hasn’t been any lively debate in the North. The North that we know has not been debating anything.

Arewa youths wrote a letter to the acting president and complained that Igbos own over 2,000 shops in Kano State alone and northerners are not allowed to do business in the South-east freely. If these agitations continue, don’t you think there will be forced restructuring someday?

These youths are not representative of youths in Nigeria, because the hope of this country is in the youth. If today the Berom young man has not seen what the Berom have gained by togetherness who would? I returned to Plateau from the White Man’s country and settled in this same spot in 1968. I came because of the late Commissioner of Police, Joseph Gomwalk. I know what we used to do to keep people together and any youth that says things have not improved in Plateau is not being honest. I don’t see any disadvantage in togetherness except the politicization of the relationship between persons, that is, “It’s not your country, it’s not your land; “Fulani people are strangers; “You go to your place”. This is what the youths have brought.  I believe Nigeria has so much that we can exploit for beauty, those youths are cutting Nigeria short. I am convinced that progress has been made by Nigeria, what is required is for the younger persons to continue from where we gave you a Nigerian nation state. We the agitators told Britain to restructure Nigeria and let the components be evenly developed. We agitated for a Middle Belt region and we said this will create more harmony in Nigeria; we took our plea to London and it was rejected. People thought about these things and we are now killing one another today; we were more committed than youths of today.

Is the North afraid of restructuring today?

No, why should we?

Should there be war resulting in forced restructuring can the North stand as a country?

I don’t know what you mean by forced restructuring. I come from the North, I come from Middle Belt, and I come from Tiv land. Are they going to uproot me from the Middle Belt? Is somebody taking me away from Plateau to somewhere else? Or what do you mean by forced restructuring?

I mean disintegration of the country through violence…

How can this country be disintegrated, you mean Nigeria will split one day? Never.

But should the cry of marginalization continue, don’t you think it will lead to something else?

You mean there was no cry of marginalization hitherto? I have been in prison 36 times and I still believe in Nigeria. To us, leadership is determined by how many times you were jailed and that was why people died for Awolowo from the West and Joseph Tarka from the Middle Belt.

The Northern Elders Forum canvassed for a northern president in 2015. You now have one but are you satisfied with his performance?

Yes, I did canvass for a northern president but certainly he can do better but I am contented unlike you younger people. What you call being youthful today disappoints me. Youths should be our arrowheads in creative ideas and I did that in my time. I had different suggestions on how I could improve on that but youths of today seem to be preoccupied with materialism. Why I insisted that a northerner should be president is because I saw in the past 16 years or so, the allocations from the federation account, which is the major impetus for economic activities in all parts of the federation, was skewed terribly in favour of other regions and to the detriment of the North. Look at the huge landmass, look at agriculture that was even the bedrock of development of Nigeria during the colonial era, what became of it? Nothing. After oil was discovered, I cannot see tangible development   with all the huge sums of money that were given to leaders over there.

A section of the county accused President Muhammadu Buhari of favouring northerners with key political appointments. Don’t you think the president was biased and that led to the current agitations?

Don’t talk as if you are naïve. Mr. President is from a political party and most appointments in civilized countries are made on the basis of patronage and economic development of any nation. Principally, you appoint people who belong to the same party with you who have performed; who are likely going to guarantee your re-election. Then if you are bold, you appoint top flyers without worrying about politics. Those who are good, professionals that can pragmatically satiate the requirements of your manifesto. Therefore in my opinion, I don’t have the wisdom of my president, but I think the constitution said one minister is to be appointed from each state to satiate the federal character requirement. Igbo land is so small relative to the North but there are many states in the South-east. The president had attempted to appoint ministers from these places and people complained that Igbos didn’t vote for him. If he didn’t appoint them, they would have said he didn’t appoint from there and the constitution said he should. What annoys me about people in the North is that they came to talk to me, because they were very disappointed with the way I reacted to them.

They wanted to know if Mr. President allocated all ministerial posts to them would northern votes alone secure him victory? I said yes but the consolidation and the credibility element of politics indicated that he had a spread. Yorubas provided it because they are wise and they divided their votes. Lagos voted almost half for PDP and a little more for APC, the West voted almost half with more votes towards Mr. President, but we in the North voted one way, because we who were campaigning knew that if we had solid votes from the North, our own will be there but here was the assumption and it’s that this man who comes from the same place as us when he gets there; the economic disability of the North that’s biting so hard, that was foisted on us by people from elsewhere, he could correct them with budgetary measures. I knew the difficulties we have had with budgetary allocations and some of us look at these things before they come out and one becomes so angry. We wrote our own budget and suggested to our own legislators that they seem not to know their job, because this Presidency, if we allow it to budget the way they were doing it, we will be worse off than we were, because the projects that can stimulate our industries are left out and we told them to insist on this. 

The cost of development in the north is prohibitive and we transport almost everything outside Nigeria. If we have to all go to Calabar or Lagos to clear our goods, we will never be developed.  We are not emotional in the North; it’s a strategic requirement that the government of the federation should pay attention to opening up the North by creating inland ports. We are so critical about the government; people from the South just think we are agreeing with everything.

In 2007, the Presidency was zoned to the North and the late President Umar Musa Yar’Adua clinched the slot but died after two years and that paved way for Jonathan from the South-south to become president and complete the tenure of the region. In 2015, the North also produced the president and now he is sick. Are you not worried that the South-west will likely complete the tenure of the North should the president resign and subsequently contest in 2019 and that the North will lose that position again?

I don’t speculate, you are afraid of what you want to talk about and I will say it. It’s not that the North had a Presidency and willingly gave it to Jonathan. Look, Umar Musa Yar’Adua died, he became sick and he died. There was commotion in the country before his deputy became president. What is worrying Northerners now is that the presidency of Muhammadu Buhari seems to be following the same pattern because he’s sick. He comes and goes and they don’t even tell people the status of his health. That is agitating the minds of people who think strategically for the North and it should. Are we going to go through these again? So, we can lose this slot that we have?  This is the source of our agitation and human beings ought to understand because of the primitive way we prevented politics to develop. People from developed nations look at your competence and capacity to deliver, they don’t look at your tribe or   region, they don’t look at where you are coming from. If you are good, their politics allows it. That has been my dream for Nigeria.

I don’t feel the loss the manner other people feel it, I felt the loss of Jonathan’s period because I thought he had opportunity and I think he messed it up. I don’t think he performed. Those people who are now blaming Buhari for not solving Nigeria’s problems in two years of his tenure, I don’t agree with them, because Jonathan was there for long as vice president and then president for 6 to 8 years and what did he do? Economically he set Nigeria backwards and everybody knows we have no money anymore. Buhari came to take very drastic action with the monumental corruption he inherited and he said he would attack it and he didn’t know the degree of the corruption and became ill. We are lucky this time around, the man who Buhari chose as vice president, Prof Yemi Osinbajo is doing a tremendous job. Every time Buhari goes for his medical treatment, Osinbajo steps up with very interesting achievements. Some of us didn’t like the friction between the Presidency and the National Assembly and whatever Osinbajo has done, he created good relationship between the National Assembly led by the Senate President and the Presidency. There appears to be a synergy now and you see them laughing and signing the budget.

Osinbajo is not afraid of doing the correct thing that Buhari had programmed and he’s not competing with him, because we could have known by now if he was. What he needs now are people to encourage him publicly to tell him that he’s doing very well and he shouldn’t listen to strange people or be bothered by ethnic sentiments from the Yoruba and from the North. He is giving Buhari credit that he choose well, because when you choose a vice president, the assumption is that should anything happen to the president, the vice president will seamlessly step into his shoes and we want it to be seamless.  Osinbajo has convinced us that Nigeria will be very safe in his hands should anything happen to our brother, the president. This is a different story from that of Jonathan and Yar’Adua. Here there is somebody who seems to know what he wants to do, he seems to know what his own master wanted, so the North has nothing to be worried about Osinbanjo becoming the president of Nigeria. We will articulate that very well.